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Please Make Gunners Useful
Letonator:
I appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions so far, we'll be covering this debate on the next Rob and Dan Show for sure, as it stands though I'll keep trying, but I feel at this point we might need game mechanics to step in and reinforce the idea that one gunner on a crew is going to make a major bonus to a solid ships crew and complement. Engineers are important and I want them to keep being important, but I don't want to be one, and I want a leg to stand on when I say I won't be the third engineer on a crew, I'm gonna be the one putting holes in the enemies hulls and balloons.
The Djinn:
--- Quote from: Letonator on October 10, 2013, 12:40:45 pm ---...but I feel at this point we might need game mechanics to step in and reinforce the idea that one gunner on a crew is going to make a major bonus to a solid ships crew and complement.
--- End quote ---
By what? Forcing a 2-engie, 1-gunner meta? That isn't a good solution, in the same way that League of Legends doesn't force a Support/Carry/Jungle Tank/Mid Assassin|Mage/Top Bruiser|Mage meta. Specifically enforcing crew types or team comps removes the ability to innovate, and the ability to have specific things. For example, there are some ships that I *do* want 3 engineers on, and having game mechanics step in means I can't do that.
Really you just have to find captains who want gunners. As this thread indicates, we *do* exist.
--- Quote ---Engineers are important and I want them to keep being important, but I don't want to be one, and I want a leg to stand on when I say I won't be the third engineer on a crew, I'm gonna be the one putting holes in the enemies hulls and balloons.
--- End quote ---
Perhaps carry the pipe wrench, and mention to your captain that you're perfectly willing to assist with repairs when necessary. The pipe wrench is a great middle ground, and gives the gunner/pilot some serious repairing power. You're no engineer and you can't extinguish fires, but you're damn helpful in a pinch.
That being said: What would your suggested alterations be? I'm always curious. :D
Echoez:
I stand by the fact that this is a team work game and you should accomodate what works best for the guy that runs the ship for you, else you should pilot a ship yourself and get your crew to be whatever you want them to be.
If your captain wants 3 engineers, go engineer and don't argue too much about it. If you don't want to, then change lobby and find a captain that has a use for a gunner.
I mean, sorry, I don't want to sound blunt, but that's how it is, Gunners CAN be used and they have their advantages, there is no problem with the class mechanically, but some people just have specific strategies in mind hence why Engineers can be more useful to them.
Thankfully I always run ships with Heavy guns so at least one gunner is always an asset to me so I realy don't see this problem much. Few and far between are the times I will have to make a gunner go engineer, but honestly in public games I don't care much so I leave one gunner on my ship most of the time anyway.
PS: As expected lot's of Merry Men on a "Gunner is useless" argument :P
PS2: Just poking fun btw, this argument is so old x3
treseritops:
--- Quote from: Letonator on October 10, 2013, 12:40:45 pm ---I don't play this game to run around and hit stuff with hammers and wrenches and watch little bars go up.
...I want a leg to stand on when I say I won't be the third engineer on a crew, I'm gonna be the one putting holes in the enemies hulls and balloons.
--- End quote ---
First off that's just selfish play. Sure, I'm not always in the mood to be main engineer but I'm *always* in the mood to be a team player and if that means playing a few matches as main engineer I'm glad to be part of a team and contribute something pretty meaningful.
Secondly, not trying to be condescending but you're a level one captain. You're relatively new to the game. You have to realize that bringing an extra two ammo types so that you can get an extra 10% dmg, or whatever buff it has is nowhere near worth the disaster of when you're gun goes down, or catches fire and you have to stand there waiting for an engineer to put your gun out.
The extra ammo types you bring as a gunner offer a marginal increase in efficiency in "putting holes in the enemy" in relation to the significant increase in flexibility you have as a gungineer.
Honestly you just need to captain more and actually try engineering. You can't have a grasp on ship dynamics or comment on how important it is that you shoot when you haven't spent any time learning about the other roles.
Omniraptor:
There is less debate about medium guns- those ships (galleon, goldfish, spire) pretty much always have a gunner, because you need projectile speed mods (incendiary/heatsink) to get around arming time restrictions at close range on the heavy flack and lumberjack, while heavy shotguns benefit a lot from switching between lochnagar/incendiary/heavy/charged, in order of usefulness. Hwachas also require a heavy clip at anything but point-blank range, though an engineer can easily just load vanilla rounds at close range with little loss, so they don't lose out as much by not having a gunner. A hwachafish is still fully viable with 3 engineers, but a blenderfish is hurt by not having a gunner.
That being said, most popular ships (ones with no medium guns) really don't need a gunner that much, because enough damage/range versatility is provided simply by being engineer and taking either a close-range (greased or incendiary) or a long-ranged (heavy or lesmok) tool, and then switching to vanilla ammo when the tool becomes less useful. Exceptions include rare weapons such as the artemis which only really benefits from burst, the banshee only really benefits from greased, etc.
Engineers simply bring more to the table, between buffing components (including weapons, giving the benefits of charged rounds), extinguishing, and repairing. In a close-range light-gun ship that's guaranteed to be taking lots of damage, a gunner simply can't keep up with repairs and their fancy ammo types are useless if the rest of the ship is broken.
p.s. we already have an epic thread about this. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php?topic=410
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