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Carronades 1.3.2
Nidh:
I have a problem with the Gatling's power and arc. I don't know why it was brought up and assumed everyone was okay with it.
Captain Blueberry:
--- Quote from: Echoez on October 03, 2013, 03:18:13 pm ---All in all this game is a bit on the simple side and I doupt something like what's described in that video could be possible in this game.
For example, a Lumberjack will always pop your balloon and there is nothing else you can do with it, or some advanced move to excecute that will pop enemy balloons 'better' other than learning how to aim, and well as there is nothing else an enemy can do about it other than:
--- End quote ---
What? High Power for low amount of Skill? The Pyramidion enbodies this as pure as it gets.
And the Lumberjack is an example for high skill to power ratio, it needs skill and knowledge of both the pilot and the gunner. And you need a Wingman able to survive two ships. Yeah you can annoy enemy ships, but when they kill your ally without you killing anyone... Plus I personally haven't fought a Lumberspire on long range yet, but I think with the new Artemis we might have a weapon to counter this gun.
And we won't have the same discussions about the Lumberjack as it is. There are other viable long range setups (new Flak much?), which take less skill and are more reliable than a Lumberjack. Yes it is very powerful, as it should be. I have seen many matches where a lumberjack setup backfired.
--- Quote from: IvKir on October 03, 2013, 03:45:47 pm ---And the Heavy Carronade, with heavy round, is really not so close range weapon. That a little closer range, than gatling, for example. And no, i don't see a point in getting longer reload time - that not the problem, i think. But a closer range - yes.
--- End quote ---
Then why should the carronade suddenly be OP? The range increase only has a placebo effect. I think the reason why it suddenly feels OP is because we had the charging gat/mortar pyra which took even less skill and was even more powerful.
Lets count what we have for close range:
Mines: Minejunker ftw, but not for new players. Otherwise it is a support weapon.
Flaregun: The Support weapon of the support weapon.
Flamethrower: Nice, but the same job can be done by the carronade
Carronade: dito.
(Mortar): Very good killer especially at close range, but since the gat changes not as useful as before.
Carronade it is then.
And with all the counter stuff, let's take the Galleon and the Junker as an example. They are good, they can be very good in the right hands but require more skill than a pyra or goldfish. If a new player is fed up with Galleons, tell him to take a blenderfish. Tell him how the gun works and be done with it. It requires less skill than a Galleon and a Junker and is very powerful against them. That doesn't mean he will always win, there are good tactics for Galleons and Junkers to kill a blenderfish. But it is an easy tactic that empowers the new player. So the other way around takes more skill, and that is fine too.
What people are saying though is how much more skill you need to fight a blenderfish. This problem didn't exist before, then you could basically took the metamidion. But now what do we have to fight a blenderfish at close range? Nothing which takes slightly more skill. It takes a lot more skill and experience to fight it and that is what people are complaining about. But that is not the guns fault! Changing the guns is just fighting the symptoms and not the cause.
Gambrill:
IvKir don't quote me on things i never said. A Buffed balloon can help remove the need for hydrogen, which if you see a blenderfish on the other team you would remove from your equipment (thinking logically if someone is going to target your balloon you don't want to cause damage to it either)
Echoez:
--- Quote from: Captain Blueberry on October 03, 2013, 04:35:04 pm ---What? High Power for low amount of Skill? The Pyramidion enbodies this as pure as it gets.
And the Lumberjack is an example for high skill to power ratio, it needs skill and knowledge of both the pilot and the gunner. And you need a Wingman able to survive two ships. Yeah you can annoy enemy ships, but when they kill your ally without you killing anyone... Plus I personally haven't fought a Lumberspire on long range yet, but I think with the new Artemis we might have a weapon to counter this gun.
And we won't have the same discussions about the Lumberjack as it is. There are other viable long range setups (new Flak much?), which take less skill and are more reliable than a Lumberjack. Yes it is very powerful, as it should be. I have seen many matches where a lumberjack setup backfired.
--- End quote ---
With the same logic, just like the LJ doesn't kill ships by itself, although does so much more effectively that the Carronade due to the massive clip, the Carronade also needs a wingman, especially since we are talking about the Blenderfish is particular. You take too long to kill someone by yourself and just how the enemies can focus a single Galleon, so can they focus a single blenderfish while having less things pointing at them (Galleon having 3 guns in comparison to the Blender's 1) and the Goldfish being a less tankier ship than a Galleon, MUCH less tanky. Though focusing the Goldfish, just like focusing the Galleon is generaly not advised, you are better off focusing the other guy that can actually kill you fast. Which is why I don't get all the whining, the kill builds are still the most dangerous things you have to worry about.
I still don't think the massive power the LJ has at range is justified, especially since the Power/Skill ratio of that gun gets screwed up the closer your target gets. So unless you are the guy that can't hit a brick wall at about 600 meters with that gun while using Lesmok, then I feel bad for you (not you specifically, just saying in general). From my experience of being a realy bad gunner, even I could land shots on ships at roughly 700-800 meters with ease after minimal training with the gun and using Lesmok, then the closer they get, the most shots I can land and I can do so with much more ease than when they where 1500 meters away. In which case, the close you get to that gun AND until you are completely within arming time, the skill it takes use it gets lower and lower while the effective power is still waaaay up there.
It doesn't take much skill to keep someone perma-locked with a Lumberjack on your average pub and the moment they are at the sweet spot just outside the arming time it's piss easy to keep them pinned while they can do absolutely nothing about it since you can sit way above them. At least the carronade has to be way up close and personal and still mostly within your gun arcs while shooting at you.
--- Quote from: Captain Blueberry on October 03, 2013, 04:35:04 pm ---And with all the counter stuff, let's take the Galleon and the Junker as an example. They are good, they can be very good in the right hands but require more skill than a pyra or goldfish. If a new player is fed up with Galleons, tell him to take a blenderfish. Tell him how the gun works and be done with it. It requires less skill than a Galleon and a Junker and is very powerful against them. That doesn't mean he will always win, there are good tactics for Galleons and Junkers to kill a blenderfish. But it is an easy tactic that empowers the new player.
What people are saying though is how much more you need to know to effectively fight a blenderfish. This problem didn't exist before, then you could basically took the metamidion, but now what do we have to fight a blenderfish for close range? Nothing which takes slightly more skill, it takes a lot more skill and experience to fight it, and that is what people are complaining about. But that is not the guns fault! Changing the guns is just fighting the symptoms and not the cause.
--- End quote ---
I straight out disagree with the bolded part. Just because a ship is slower or has its guns on the side, doesn't mean it takes more skill to use, it's just a DIFFERENT style of play. Just like the Blenderfish is a good ship against Galleons or Junkers, Galleons and Junkers are very good against other ships, like the Pyramidion. There are counters and counter-strategies for every ship.
Also Power/Skill ratio should be kept in check if you don't want to end up having guns that are completely horrible once you have learnt how to use an other one.
I'm gonna bring TF2 as an example, take the 'Ambassador' that's a revolver for the Spy class, compared to the normal 'Stock' revolver, this one fires 20% slower (not much of a difference in game since you have to wait a bit in order for the recoil to set down) does 15% less damage, but grants you a critical hit (x3 the normal damage) on a headshot, something the normal revolver simply can't do, it can't headshot.
This makes this gun something that I personaly call a 'Skill upgrade', simply put, the Revolver as a gun is obsolete if you can use the Ambassador. Something I never want to see happen in this game. the Lumberjack is already VERY close to overshadowing the Carronade, seeing as how it does way more damage with a much larger clip and has over triple the range of the carronade. The only thing that is holding it back right now is the arming time, which you can't reduce to some extend. I'm not saying the LJ is a clear skill upgrade to the carronade, but it sure as hell is close to being one, which is why I don't want to see further changes to nerf the carronades more.
Captain Blueberry:
--- Quote from: Echoez on October 03, 2013, 04:59:30 pm --- Which is why I don't get all the whining, the kill builds are still the most dangerous things you have to worry about.
--- End quote ---
And that's the thing about game design. You are absolutely right. There is no objective reason to hate the carronade. But people feel powerless fighting against it. Like I said, as bad as the metamidion was, it was at least an easy tactics for new players against the carronades, it made them feel powerful.
--- Quote from: Echoez on October 03, 2013, 04:59:30 pm ---I still don't think the massive power the LJ has at range is justified, especially since the Power/Skill ratio of that gun gets screwed up the closer your target gets. So unless you are the guy that can't hit a brick wall at about 600 meters with that gun while using Lesmok, then I feel bad for you ...
--- End quote ---
I have to agree. I haven't thought so much about it but it seems more broken than any gun, yet nobody cares ;). People don't feel powerless, maybe because they have other long range guns to fight a lumberjack. And there are other guns to effectively snipe.
--- Quote from: Echoez on October 03, 2013, 04:59:30 pm ---I straight out disagree with the bolded part. Just because a ship is slower or has its guns on the side, doesn't mean it takes more skill to use, it's just a DIFFERENT style of play.
--- End quote ---
Again, objectively you are right. But watch a match of new players. With bloody beginners. What they do, consistently, with whatever ship they happened to take is charge. Even if it is a Spire. Always. That's why I consider Goldfish and Pyra easy ships, beginners can do with them what they would do anyways. I am betting my left nut that this is why the pyra has two front-facing guns. So new player have a ship they can actually use and not feel useless, powerless.
--- Quote from: Echoez on October 03, 2013, 04:59:30 pm ---I'm not saying the LJ is a clear skill upgrade to the carronade, but it sure as hell is close to being one, which is why I don't want to see further changes to nerf the carronades more.
--- End quote ---
And uhm... I completely agree. There is a problem though, people do feel powerless against it. So a counter strategy may not be accessible enough. Or a good alternative for a close range gun for that matter. But it isn't the carronade's fault, as I wrote before.
I remember my experience with the blenderfish. In beginner matches had to fight Hwacha Galleons. Always Hwacha Galeons. It made you feel powerless. You came close, got disabled and were completely useless. Then I stumbled over the Blenderfish. I intuitively learned to sneak up on ships, it was the first empowering experience, I learned something new and I now had a tactic in my repertoire. My first real tactic. Exactly the experience described in the video. And carronades are not very often used in competitive games. The blenderfish is essentially the Noobtube of GOIO, giving new players a positive experience and hooking them up for more. It needs to be easy and it needs to be powerful.
I am starting to write the same thing twice so I stop writing.
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