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Carronades 1.3.2

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shadowsteel:

Hey there

Got your attention? Good.

Okay, this seems to happen after every patch.

Somethings get changed, someone fixates on one item, chaotic and rather lengthy thread ensues. whatevr

So, just to throw my two cents in, there was something I didn't like about the carronade from the start that I feel is rather important.

The carronade is meant to do one thing. Pop balloons and keep an enemy locked down. The carronade does this very well along with some other things.

It trashes  guns and engines and shreds hull.

Notice anything? Like the fact that this gun is great at destroying everything you love and cherish? Seriously, with a half-decent gunner that listens, you can take out anything on their ship with 1 maybe 1 1/2 clips.

It's only weakness is downward arc and short range, both of which can be pretty easily avoided.

I'm not saying it's OP. It can be countered (see about half of the previous posts).

But there's one thing I think should be changed and it's not the gun.

One of the fundamental parts of the game is Spill Damage. Any damage to a destroyed component, spills to the hull and gets modified by the hull.

The balloon is the biggest target on most ships and even with modifiers the carronade does a ton of damage to the hull/armor.

My idea is simple but it effects all damage.

Give all destroyed components a damage modifier.

Yea it's destroyed, but it's still there dammit!

Any damage to destroyed components still spills to hull but is modified by both the hull/armor and also the Destroyed Component modifier.

And to just give it a number say .7 to all damage types.

And that's about it.

Echoez:
Sniping light guns is a rarity and close to impossible in a heated fight especially with the tiny hitboxes the have, sniping engines maybe.. disagree with the 0.7 on all damage sources, hull modifiers already decrease the Flechette damage it does to a mere 35% and an even worse 20% for the Shatter and makes it much worse at something it's already not that good in, especially with the longer reload cycle.

People always over exaggerate about the Carronade's armor stripping power when in reality it takes around 2-3 clips to destroy it, that's more than enough time to get spanner and mallet hits in (Unless it's a Goldfish or a Squid, but rightly so, these ships have almost no armor anyway). Sure the carronade's burst can take many by suprise, but it's no more than that, a suprise, you will feel it once, next time you know what's there and you're prepared for it, sniping out components is mostly overlooked in favor of focusing on the objective unless it's a Heavy gun you need to take out, in which case you have that ability, but heavy guns are an entirely different matter, Hwacha has the upper hand in range already so it shouldn't be a problem, LJ should keep you down before you get close enough and the Flak.. well it's the Flak, it can't do anything other than blow up ships.

I mean heck, even Gatlings, Mortars and light carronades can disable that gun.. you don't need a weapon focused on disabling just to take down a single carronade..

Captain Smollett:

--- Quote from: Echoez on October 03, 2013, 06:58:19 pm ---Sniping light guns is a rarity and close to impossible in a heated fight especially with the tiny hitboxes the have, sniping engines maybe.. disagree with the 0.7 on all damage sources, hull modifiers already decrease the Flechette damage it does to a mere 35% and an even worse 20% for the Shatter and makes it much worse at something it's already not that good in, especially with the longer reload cycle.

People always over exaggerate about the Carronade's armor stripping power when in reality it takes around 2-3 clips to destroy it, that's more than enough time to get spanner and mallet hits in (Unless it's a Goldfish or a Squid, but rightly so, these ships have almost no armor anyway). Sure the carronade's burst can take many by suprise, but it's no more than that, a suprise, you will feel it once, next time you know what's there and you're prepared for it, sniping out components is mostly overlooked in favor of focusing on the objective unless it's a Heavy gun you need to take out, in which case you have that ability, but heavy guns are an entirely different matter, Hwacha has the upper hand in range already so it shouldn't be a problem, LJ should keep you down before you get close enough and the Flak.. well it's the Flak, it can't do anything other than blow up ships.

I mean heck, even Gatlings, Mortars and light carronades can disable that gun.. you don't need a weapon focused on disabling just to take down a single carronade..

--- End quote ---

Ok, I guess I have to be that guy but time for a quick math check here.

LJ and heavy carronade do almost the exact same amount of overall damage per minute to armor.  LJ does much more to balloons but can't damage components and has an arming time, Carronade does much more to components but has a max range, these guns currently are well balanced against each other.

Heavy carronade actually does almost as much damage per minute to armor as a chaingun and a good deal more damage to armor than a chaingun with heavy clip.

Great, now that we have our maths right, feel free to carry on, though be aware; any more "facts" are subject to future math checks. 

Sprayer:
It's not the damage per minute that counts when you can strip hulls in a matter of seconds and cooldowns are a crucial factor to repairs. Apply your math more practical for what you did is no better than a subjective "fact".
Also, the gat/mortar is a gat and a mortar, meaning you dont want your mortar to save its 19 (burst/greased) shots until the hull is stripped, you only need about 9 greased and 7 or 8 unmodified damage shots to finish most ships off.

@Echoes are you sure flechette only deals 35% against armor? I wouldn't trust the matrix the devs put on their website (because they no update). The latest patch note I found that was mentioning modifiers said it deals 40% to armor. (Really old patch notes that actually are the newest mentioning flechette damage)
Sure it's hard to snipe out light guns with heavy clip. What about charged? I find it quite easy to destroy or at least heavily damage light guns with that. The downside is not how "hard" it is to hit those guns, it's the fact that you can only shoot those two shots every 5,5 seconds, so you have to prioritize. Keep the balloon down? Shoot directly at the hull to strip it?

Other than that, I agree with Echoez. Pretty much every build can counter blenderfish if just the people manning the guns are good enough. Smollet's high skill to power ratio comes to mind.

Echoez:

--- Quote from: Captain Smollett on October 03, 2013, 10:48:33 pm ---Ok, I guess I have to be that guy but time for a quick math check here.

LJ and heavy carronade do almost the exact same amount of overall damage per minute to armor.  LJ does much more to balloons but can't damage components and has an arming time, Carronade does much more to components but has a max range, these guns currently are well balanced against each other.

Heavy carronade actually does almost as much damage per minute to armor as a chaingun and a good deal more damage to armor than a chaingun with heavy clip.

Great, now that we have our maths right, feel free to carry on, though be aware; any more "facts" are subject to future math checks.

--- End quote ---

The problem is, DPM is reduntant in this discussion, you won't be hitting anyone for a whole minute, it's all about the burst damage you can deliver in a clip or two at most and you are forgetting one crusial detail about the LJ, it's massive explosion means that even if you hit hull, you will also damage the balloon (and visa versa), which means that unike the carronade that has to decide what to hit, the LJ can just shoot hull or balloon and take them both down at the same time.

Carronades might have the same DPM as the Gatling in the long run, but that doesn't change the fact that the Gatling can still take the armor out in one go while the carronade waits for a reload, that's the main difference and I think it's enough. (also the Galting has a much longer range)

Also I hope you do take multiple ammo types into account and not just going with the standard Engi-Buff hammer on a gun like this anymore.

For the Gatling: I still insist that it's spread is reduced to 2.5 degrees instead of 3.5 so Greased rounds can work better, that's my only drag with it atm, if that gets fixed then the gun will be more than sweet AND balanced.




--- Quote from: Sprayer on October 04, 2013, 06:47:36 am ---It's not the damage per minute that counts when you can strip hulls in a matter of seconds and cooldowns are a crucial factor to repairs.

@Echoes are you sure flechette only deals 35% against armor? I wouldn't trust the matrix the devs put on their website (because they no update). The latest patch note I found that was mentioning modifiers said it deals 40% to armor.
Sure it's hard to snipe out light guns with heavy clip. What about charged? I find it quite easy to destroy or at least heavily damage light guns with that. The downside is not how "hard" it is to hit those guns, it's the fact that you can only shoot those two shots every 5,5 seconds, so you have to prioritize. Keep the balloon down? Shoot directly at the hull to strip it?
good enough.

--- End quote ---

Bolded message is a massive truth.

Also yes, the modifiers are correct, there is no way Eric would change those without saying anything and they seem to make sense with the numbers I have found AND the damage I actually deal, so it is still 35%, not 40%.

Yes, as I stated earlier in this post, the carronade HAS to choose a target in order to be effective due to the small clip and now much longer reload, you have to commit even more.

Also I suggest you try Incediary if you want utility/weapon disabling, unless you are up against Heavy guns/Engines, then Heavy is your friend.



--- Quote from: Sprayer on October 04, 2013, 06:47:36 am ---Other than that, I agree with Echoez. Pretty much every build can counter blenderfish if just the people manning the guns are good enough.

--- End quote ---

Every ship can counter everything else, unless it's an extreme situation (Squid gets close to a Galleon for example, in which case the Galleon can't do all that much) or the loadout simply doesn't work (4 Flamerthrowers or something, dunno).

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