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Ships with the power to kill
Eukari:
We are arguing about a video game on the internet. Let's keep this in perspective, please.
Echoez, please appreciate the fact that, even if you have personally tested things like more hull armor, we have not. Simply saying "No, doesn't work, trust me" is not the kind of argument that wins people over. Perhaps if you described what happened in matches with increased hull, it would help us understand better why you think it's a such bad idea. Things like that chart are just going to make people mad, and that's not constructive.
The problem is this: In any given situation, the most efficient tactic is always to simply kill the enemy. At the moment, this typically means stripping armor with a Gatling and then blowing up the hull with Mortar/Flak. All guns that disable the enemy ship do is merely prolong the engagement and decrease your chance of getting a kill. (through lost potential killing power by replacing a Gatling-Mortar/Flak with something else) Working together with an ally simply compounds the problem- it is still better to bring two "finishers" than to bring one "disabler" and a finisher. After all, why disable, then kill when you can just kill twice as fast?
The question is, how can we make disabling builds more viable without going too far and making them required? How do we make Disable/Finisher more on par with Finisher/Finisher? Right now, it's easier to kill than it is to disable. Making the hitboxes for weapons a little bigger might aid in that- if it doesn't require such crazy good aim to take enemy guns individually, a disabler can potentially last longer against a killing ship. However, you're still relying on player skill rather than simply making the fight longer (as flatly increasing the hull would do).
Echoez:
--- Quote from: Eukari on September 01, 2013, 04:07:33 pm ---We are arguing about a video game on the internet. Let's keep this in perspective, please.
Echoez, please appreciate the fact that, even if you have personally tested things like more hull armor, we have not. Simply saying "No, doesn't work, trust me" is not the kind of argument that wins people over. Perhaps if you described what happened in matches with increased hull, it would help us understand better why you think it's a such bad idea. Things like that chart are just going to make people mad, and that's not constructive.
--- End quote ---
Simply put, what happened in that test:
Disables were even less of an issue than they are now. When you have even more health than the current one, since disables aren't that much of a threat on your health already, you pretty much know that the disabler now can't kill you no matter how hard he tries. Sure engagments were longer because the disabler didn't die fast either, but in the end, the people that brought kill builds won and the disablers didn't realy have a chance after all.
It was a horrible experience, not only did it worsen the condition of disablers vs killers, but it made disablers the most frustrating thing to fight against since they didn't kill you but just prolonged the fight with absolutely no other effect than prolonging it, we just rebuilt our guns and kept firing cause they couldn't kill us at all this time.
You have to realize that by increasing hull and armor totals you buff the ships across the board, what is already the best, will remain the best, no matter how much health you have.
The more health the killers are allowed to have, the worse disables will work against them since it enlarges the gap of kill time between the two types of weapons even more.
There. Constructive enough? I realy don't want to sound patronizing to anyone, but I'm realy getting bored of how stagnant the meta of this game is where mostly all weapons are ignored in place of Piercing and Explosive.
My frustration is towards the game, not you guys, so I'm sorry about that.
Eukari:
--- Quote from: Echoez on September 01, 2013, 04:22:13 pm ---There. Constructive enough? I realy don't want to sound patronizing to anyone, but I'm realy getting bored of how stagnant the meta of this game is where mostly all weapons are ignored in place of Piercing and Explosive.
My frustration is towards the game, not you guys, so I'm sorry about that.
--- End quote ---
Yes, it was. And we share your frustration- that's why we are here, trying to help find a solution. :)
What you said makes sense. The problem is still that in any given engagement, the ship with the most killing power is probably going to win. (barring large disparities in crew skill) A disabling build can potentially reduce the enemy's abilities, but only temporarily, and unless the ship also has a way to kill them (or is working closely with an ally who does) will eventually slip up and get murdered. The only ships that can really do both jobs are the Junker, Galleon and Moblua, and they're all pretty good in the right hands. (though the Galleon and Mobula have more obvious weaknesses) Ships that can just straight-up kill are also very strong; those that focus on disabling/support are the weakest. (i.e. the Goldfish) Having some way to break armor is also mandatory- I cringe when I see that a ship that doesn't have at least one Gatling.
So what's our solution here? Buffing hull damage (to try and give disablers more time to do their work) merely prolongs the inevitable. Buffing shatter damage could work, making disabling easier, but could also backfire and make outright killing too hard- nobody wants to spend the entire match rebuilding their guns only to have them immediately destroyed. (what was it called- peaching?- is fine in small doses, but I don't want to always have to do it) As I said, I also like increasing the hitboxes for guns and such. Make the Banshee and the Artemis more viable.
I think reducing explosive damage could also be useful. Not a lot- you still need to be able to get kills, but I've flown enough Pyramidions to see a lot of hulls dissolve under a single mortar barrage. Should anything but the most fragile ships be dying to one clip of anything? (and I'm not talking Spires here- I mean Pyras and Goldfish) Or perhaps nerfing piercing damage slightly, so that it takes longer to get them vulnerable.
Echoez:
I still think that guns like the Artemis and the Carronades have stupid restrictions on them that simply don't allow them to do their job properly if your ship is focused around them.
People think that if the carronades were able to aim slightly further downwards, suddenly balloon camping would be easy, well, it realy isn't that easy staying above someone in the correct position, I suggest you try doing it before calling out the gun being too easy.
I still don't get why can't the Artemis can't aim up :/
N-Sunderland:
The Artemis can't aim up because it was OP for a week, and it got an unnecessarily harsh nerf.
The whole balloon camping thing used to happen all the time and was pretty balanced, but this brings us back to the aforementioned problem: new players couldn't deal with it, and complained that it was broken. So once again, yeah, better tutorials and things please.
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