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Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.

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RearAdmiralZill:

--- Quote ---Great long range? 1000m isn't that long. And with a full second you already cover something like 500m before reaching arming time. For a gun that has a very specific purpose and doesn't do much damage when the hull is up, 1 second is just too long.
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The max range on the flak is greater than 1km. Once they get close you use ammo that slows the projectile, thus lowering the arming time. Even within the arming time, you still do 50% damage. So get the hull down and pelt away, avoid the situation to begin with by killing them as they charge your gun lines, or turn your short side early.


--- Quote ---do not see how this is a problem, it would turn the Galleon into a little bit less of a joke in 2v2 fights. Not only Galleons, but spires and goldfishes have use for a gun like this. Next to fire, it's the only type not represented by heavy weaponry.
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No offence, but there is nothing wrong with a galleon in a 2v2 fight. And Im fully aware the other ships can use a gun like that, but the point is a galleon can take four, and shoot two at the same time. It'll only lead to galleons sitting in the open, gunning down people with that flavor of heavy gun and a flak. Not to say they won't ever come out with one, but its my opinion that we don't need it given the options we have available (which is always growing.)


--- Quote ---You missed the point. Think about this for a second: How would they chip away at a ship they cannot see? You have to be really careful with how you think about balance, there's only a few games who'm have gotten it well and nearly all of them do the least things with the damage of their playable entities. If you want, you could pull up the change list between Guilty Gear XX Accent Core and Guilty Gear XX Accent Core +R. The latter is a rebalance, but rather than tuning damage alone, they changed the properties of some moves to allow characters to deal better with disadvantageous situations. Being outranged is such a disadvantageous situation and dealing with it without touching the weapons that seem overpowered may balance everything a lot better than just damage tuning or projectile tuning.
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I didn't miss any points. And use the flare gun to deal with clouds. Hell, the clouds move too, so there is always going to be gaps that you can use. I know how balance works, and I truly want a totally balanced goio. Besides not agreeing with the heavy flak arming times and I guess thinking the merc changes are bad, I don't know what you are trying to get at here balance wise.

naufrago:
Max range of heavy flak is 1008m with normal ammo. Arming distance of heavy flak is 240m with normal ammo.

People seem confused about that, so this is just to clarify things.

RearAdmiralZill:
Must of been thinking lesmok range then. My opinion doesn't change though. Arming is fine, though obviously shell life could go up to increase its range.

QKO:

--- Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on August 16, 2013, 03:03:24 pm ---The max range on the flak is greater than 1km. Once they get close you use ammo that slows the projectile, thus lowering the arming time. Even within the arming time, you still do 50% damage. So get the hull down and pelt away, avoid the situation to begin with by killing them as they charge your gun lines, or turn your short side early.

--- End quote ---
Yes, the distance is 1008m, I stand corrected. I even bothered testing to see whether the rounds shoot further but they don't.  Lesmok range can be longer than normal range, but  the gun should not be balanced around lesmok, but lesmok around the gun. So what if people get a giant range extension with lesmok or their rounds become easier to aim? They trade that off with less damage or by lacking other properties. Having a flak cannon by itself reaching across the field isn't even threatening provided your crew keeps your hull armor up. If anything, I would be much more worried about the fieldgun or a heavy long range piercing gun I'm suggesting than something that only does good damage when the hull is down.

--- Quote ---No offence, but there is nothing wrong with a galleon in a 2v2 fight. And Im fully aware the other ships can use a gun like that, but the point is a galleon can take four, and shoot two at the same time. It'll only lead to galleons sitting in the open, gunning down people with that flavor of heavy gun and a flak. Not to say they won't ever come out with one, but its my opinion that we don't need it given the options we have available (which is always growing.)
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That should be their choice to make. If they want to hang in the air like that, that is fine. It's not even unbalanced in itself. And we come back to:

--- Quote ---I didn't miss any points. And use the flare gun to deal with clouds. Hell, the clouds move too, so there is always going to be gaps that you can use. I know how balance works, and I truly want a totally balanced goio. Besides not agreeing with the heavy flak arming times and I guess thinking the merc changes are bad, I don't know what you are trying to get at here balance wise.

--- End quote ---
You missed the point again, eventhough you say you don't, you still miss the point. My point was that it wasn't the guns themselves that force a playstyle that the players people use right now. The Galleon will still be equipped with flak and LJ regardless of how badly you nerve those specific weapons because they will always keep their purpose. Their purpose is giving the Galleon means over distance. Because thanks to its most rotten acceleration and requirement to turn the broadside towards the target, the Galleon cannot move. If people wanted to play brawler with almost any ship they will rapidly find out that they can get bursted down rather easily from a distance. Even now with fieldguns; and if fieldguns is not an option, two chainguns and a mortar launcher will get a Galleon down before it is able to turn its broadside. Any player will confirm this to you. And rather than nerfing the weapons themselves, it would be better to give people means to get closer. Smoke screens can work. I know how a flare gun works but this is something you can balance. Maybe we can give ship shields that they can place in a weapon slot that will prevent rounds from reaching the ship. There's tons of ways you can solve the same problem and at the same time fix the actual problem rather than patch it a little with a damage nerf.

Moriarty:
In relation to the Zill QKO back and forth i have to go with Zill (feel dirty) - Galleons don't need any help atm, and the arm time is a solid mechanic which although at times inconvenient is an absolute necessity (the fjord vids should still be hosted on qwerty's channel if you don't believe me).

On another note, I tested the 4 shot heavy flak, I don't mind the idea but here's my main issue with it:

1. To use this gun effectively you have to fire during the window when the armour's down, i think we can all agree on that.
2. The window you have to shoot is on average something like 5-8 seconds, and less on a goldfish and squid.
3. Considering the insanely slow speed of the Heavy flak rounds its difficult (and impossible at medium distance) to fit 4 rounds into the window if you have to aim the shots.

I *think* this was an oversight. In any course if (as is my understanding) the flak damage was spread across 4 shots rather than 2 - then this change would still be a nerf to the flak with regards to lesmok and i'm fairly sure that wasnt the point of the recent changes.

I back smollets suggestion to give it two rounds, either through a float as suggested by hamster? or just giving it 2.4 rounds total (i am informed this is the correct math to make a 30% reduction equal 2).

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