GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1

[Captain Smollett]

Just going back a bit in the thread, but if you really wanted to buff the artemis, and increase its usage and effectiveness; increase its zoom.  Giving the gun a slight boost in zoom would let average gunners make component hits at medium range and expert gunners make component hits at long ranges.

I'd recommend boosting the zoom power a small amount and seeing how it feels.  Right now the gun is quite good, though a bit underutilized.  A slight boost to the zoom power wouldn't change the balance of the weapon, but would ease in its precision.

[dasfoxx]

Having a boosted zoom would be a wonderful thing for the Artemis. As it stands right now it fires so quickly that it becomes hard to gauge where the shot is and what it could possibly hit at increased range. Since it's so rarely used it's hard to get accustomed to it in order to use it at it's full potential due to most shots missing due to the negligible zoom power.

[Captain McFaceSmashy]

@Nidh

Sniping could be changed to be a purely supporting role, but let's not forget that, at current, fighting from Very long range isn't as common as it used to be (them added clouds really hurt in that respect) and in some maps just isn't viable (I'm looking at that derelict city). As such I don't see the problem with using long-range guns to damage/kill enemies so long as they are outclassed by thier short-ranged versions when the distance is closed (and any short range ship can use kerosine to close that distance within approximately a single round of fire)

When it comes to coordinated (competitive) team-based battles though, as in 3v3 or such, having killing power on long ranged ships may just be too good, as they can (potentially, depending on the map or objective) sit in a firing range and just focus down 1 - 2 targets before they can even get in range (by kiting backwards, most likely) thereby making the close-range play-style irrelevant entirely.

This may be in part because of long-range guns not paying enough of a price in damage for their range, or the faster, close ranged ships being too squishy in general. Making all the long-ranged guns "support" would probably be an easy solution for competitive play, but it wouldn't make them any less frustrating to fight against, nor fix the general range-superiority problem.

@Ccrack
that's probably a bad idea, as this guarantees the battle will come to short range where you will still have a large part of your firing arcs going "Plink, Plink" to the opponents "Boom, Boom"

@Captain Smollett
Yes, if the artemis was supposed to be used as a long-range disabler I would agree that a bigger zoom is in order. I think at the moment however that isn't going to happen, out of fear that the mercury will lose it's niche as a pinpoint disabling gun for long range.

@dasfoxx
yes its combination of traveltime and semi-slow firing rate can make it a bit awkward to gauge your next shot from your previous one, but it's still better (imo) than the guns that just fire without any indication of where your shots went unless you hit something (I'm looking at you carronades)

[Nidh]

I think making sniping purely support would fix a lot of problems though. Just because sniping is less common, doesn't mean getting killed from a ridiculous range is any less aggravating. You said yourself, even if it's made to be purely support it'd still be annoying. At least you could have a bit of breathing room if you knew that your close-range ship will be just as hard a kill for the sniper as they are to you.

[awkm]

As far as sniping and what the different ranges mean: since 1.3.1 with the Field Gun + cloud changes, we're obviously moving away from hyper long range engagements (1500m+).  Some players vocally disagree with this move but I don't think hyper long range combat differentiates GoIO from other FPS nor does it take advantage of the unique characteristics of the game.  GoIO really shines from close to mid-range combat when ships are evading each other, broadsiding, etc...  It's where the game becomes beautiful with the depth of teamwork and tactically decision making.

The main distinction between support (chipping away etc) and finishers is that finishers at long range (700m to 1200m) are acceptable.  With skills, support weapons may edge into hyper long range but should not be reliable to kill.  The Heavy Flak, after a coming hot fix, will be able to again fulfill its role as a long range finisher.  It's a hard gun to use and requires the right support to be useful so it should remain niche.

Competitive is hard to balance because the metas in competitive will always be conservative.  Conservative in this game is at range.  However, I hope that the added clouds and perhaps will future skills will allow players to stealth their way to use more high risk high reward metas.  That's the biggest challenge for me right now, which is a good problem to have.  It means a lot of core balance issues like guns are more or less settling. 

Definitely took some time but I think we're all in agreement that things are looking relatively good in a lot of areas.

[Nidh]

I agree, things seem to be evening out with the addition of clouds and the Mercury nerf. 700-1200 meters will be a good range to allow finishing to occur, that's almost mid-range imo. 700 meters can be closed rather quickly.

[awkm]

Re-post of something I said in the Heavy Flak thread.


More ways are being added to allow ships to approach long range ships.  I've added additional cloud cover and reduced the effectiveness and easy of use of the Field Gun.  They're small steps but I think are important ones.  Hyper long range (1500m or more) engagements (with killing at those ranges) doesn't really differentiate GoIO from other shooters.  This game really shines at close to mid range combat when you see ships moving tactically, broadsiding, etc...  Long range is still pretty interesting though but there are fewer options for those engagements to take place (Heavy Flak after the coming hot patch).  In general, yes I want to bring combat closer.

The way guns behave (damage, damage types, etc...) will need to be changed in order to facilitate the move in this direction.  Things aren't going to change drastically, that's not what I want either.  Gentle nudges and realignments.  Some potential changes and effects are regrettably missed, but sometimes it reveals other issues (like Lesmok + Heavy Flak crutch).  Also, we'll need to implements new mechanics as well to ensure that these engagement ranges are possible and can be pulled off not easily but with medium amount of effort.  A cloud creation skill is in the works, we have the hooks for it so it just needs some tweaking (Tar Barrel).  Other ideas include the addition of impulse force (like when you hit a mine you get pushed a little) to weapons or specialize it to a single weapon so that you can deny angles to some extent.  This will also be important as we reexamine CP maps and how they do and don't work for us.

Some ideas I've mentioned are very experimental so take what I've said with a grain of salt.  This is just to give everyone an idea of where the game is going and what things we're working on to improve it.

[Captain Smollett]

Guns are really coming in to balance now for sure.  With the Flaks already under consideration the only weapons that I feel need a look these days are certainly already known by you awkm, the banshee is a bit underpowered and..........

The Harpoon!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now that you've got the game in a pretty good state of balance, after the rebalance for the new weapon, maybe we can finally get the harpoon we've always wanted.  That gun really has so much potential for awesomeness, just give it more piercing and more tow power and people are going to be like, don't get too close to that Junker, he's going to tow you into his broadsides and tear you apart.

[awkm]

Just made sure harpoon was in our backlog.

Almost forgot about that for denying movement.

[QKO]

Continuation on Mortar being OP: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1615.msg36970.html#msg36970

Surrete(I cannot seem to quote it anymore):
How is a Galleon supposed to outrun a Junker or Pyramidion? Nevermind the goldfishes and squids that can outmaneuver Galleons with relative ease? And the mortar range is quite large, quite frankly, it is larger than the heavy carronade, which so happens to be one of the few supposed answers that the Galleon has.

[Surette]

Galleon doesn't need to outrun them, if you're going against a mortar I recommend having a hwacha for those close-range disables. Then your opponent's mortar will be useless. Plus if you're in a galleon you're meant to be heavily damaging the enemy before they're able to get that close to you.

[QKO]

Have you ever seriously attempted to fly a Galleon? You seem to have no notion of what Galleon crews are going through. When a pyramidion/goldfish/junker/squid/spire/etc decides to attack a Galleon, they first of all rarely charge from the Galleon's broadsides. That means that the Galleon has to turn. For the Hwacha to work, the Pyramidion needs to be in 750 meters. The Pyramidion's chaingun has a range of 750m and starts firing usually while that Galleon is turning. Now, why wouldn't a Pyramidion chaingunner not target the Hwacha's that are turning towards him?

In short, those hwacha's are more often gone than not before the Galleon has turned to fire. It gets worse from here, because the heavy guns die so easily, you need an engineer below deck to repair them and that means the hull is being sacrificed. Now you got an engineer downstairs, your hull is down and the Pyramidion starts to fire its mortar. Do you still think it's fair for a Galleon to die without firing a shot?

Don't forget that you silently agreed that the Galleon cannot outrun its pursuers. The Galleon's guns also go down to easily for the ship to make a proper stand and the only thing in between instant death right now is the hull armor that it provides. That hull armor takes very long to repair and ships that are trying to kill a Galleon will have done so before anyone on that ship has had the time to respond in the first place.

I will reiterate once more that I don't think it's fair for a ship classified as tank, where the crew is working their hardest to keep the vessel alive, to have their ship evaporate at a moment's notice. And it's only the mortar that is this bad. Flak cannon, rocket carousel, artemis and any other sources of explosive damage are much more moderate.

[Sammy B. T.]

Have you tried coordinating your crew? If you're hull engineer upstairs needs help, pull your second engineer right on upstairs. Perhaps you need to work on your positioning better, don't let them get in your blind spot and if they do, have something to counter them like a flare gun or tar barrel.

[N-Sunderland]

If an enemy ship manages to approach from the front of your Galleon, you're doing something wrong. That ship is all about positioning. You need to park it in a spot where the only angles of approach are from its broadsides.

(and the hwacha has a range of 1200 metres, by the way)

[Surette]

Yes, I have flown a galleon countless times. I'd also like to point out that I engineer on Zill's galleon in competitive play, so I'm likely more aware than the average player of what galleon crews go through. Now, yes, the galleon has to turn. Phoenix claw on a galleon (or most ships really) is a 100% necessity. Whoever told you that you need to be within 750 meters to use the hwacha was sorely mistaken, I'm afraid. It fires up to 1.2k, and as long as you have heavy ammo loaded in, you can hit at that range with a bit of practice. A gatling gunner may target your hwacha, but it's fairly difficult to consistently hit a heavy gun with a gatling gun, especially while both ships are moving. Not to mention the galleon crew should be focused on not letting their guns get destroyed, so they'll be repairing them while this is happening.

If your hwacha is gone before the galleon has even turned to fire, something is going seriously wrong. Having an engineer downstairs absolutely does not mean the hull is being sacrificed. You should have two engineers; one upstairs on the hull and balloon, and one downstairs on the guns and engines. Again, if your galleon is dying before even firing a shot, something is going seriously wrong.

I didn't "silently agree" that the galleon cannot outrun its pursuers, I simply said that it doesn't need to. If you'd like to try outrunning your pursuers, the galleon certainly can. It has poor acceleration, but a fairly high top speed. The only reason it's generally a bad idea is because then your broadsides are no longer facing the enemy. Of course you have things like tar barrel to help mitigate this.

You keep coming back to your point of "have their ship evaporate at a moment's notice" ... I'm not sure what's happening in your galleon matches, but the galleon should never be evaporating at moment's notice, and that's almost never my experience on a galleon.