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Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
Eukari:
Okay, I think I'm getting a better sense of what you're asking for. I think my main problem thus far has been your terminology- casual vs. hardcore. When you're talking about "casual" players, what you really mean is bad players; the kind who don't care about learning the game and aren't going to get better over time. And when you say "hardcore," you mean good players; the kind who do care about learning the game and want to get better over time. That's the divide you want to make- keep the "bad" players and the "good" players separate.
I'm a longtime World of Warcraft player, and that game has long had a distinction between the "hardcore" and "casual" players supposedly based on how much each group played each week. People would often argue that Blizzard (the company that makes WoW) favored one at the expense of the other, or that they "obviously don't care about [casual/hardcore] players and just want to pander to the [hardcore/casual] crowd." The thing is, that dichotomy is worthless. How much someone plays the game does not, ultimately, equal their devotion or ability to play said game.
I think this is why your description of "casual" and "hardcore" players makes me angry; I'm coming off of a very similar argument that was ultimately pointless, and I'd like to not have it again here. Thus, I will from now on refer to our two groupings as "bad" and "good" players respectively.
The problem is that there's no good way to separate good and bad players other than rankings and the like, and the player base in GoIO is far too small to institute some kind of system like that. How many people are actually playing this game? I've never seen more than 1,000 online at any given time; I play at odd hours, true, but that's the absolute maximum. How many of those are under level three in all classes? How many are over level 10? If I level up, will I suddenly have nobody else to play with? What if level is a poor measure of player skill? I got to level three/four in everything just by playing the game for a couple weeks. Yeah, I'm not bad, but I'm far from an expert. How do you measure that? Do we let players police themselves? Vote kick systems are ripe for abuse, and, as I said, there are too few players to go kicking all of the bad ones that show up. You're right that the commendation system is fairly weak; most people just hit it as a matter of course. But I'm not sure what else can be done.
I'd also like to say that I have yet to notice any large wave of "bad" players showing up. Yeah, there are a few bad eggs, but never so many I can't just ignore the annoying ones or find a new lobby to play in.
Mr. Ace Rimmer:
--- Quote from: QKO ---What you're saying is like, "Lets ignore the currently slowly growing problem and it will be alright"
--- End quote ---
That is the exact opposite of what I am saying and you know it. Since when did engaging with the community and actively trying to rectify a growing problem become ignorance. If Muse were to ever implement a system that split the player base the way you are suggesting, I would consider myself having gotten my $10 out of the game and walk away from it.
I fail to see this problem as anything more than minor and sincerely believe you are looking at the situation with a very lopsided view based on what should have been in my experience (and I believe a lot of others) a statistical anomaly.
I have been playing quite regularly for nigh on 3 weeks now and I would say <1% of the player base I have encountered fit into the category you are describing.
No matter how much you try to sugar coat it, what you are selling is elitism, a two tiered player base, us and them, and I and many others just aren't buying it.
(The reporting system exists for a reason and should continue to be used. I'm pretty sure Muse follow up on all reports.)
QKO:
--- Quote from: Eukari on August 28, 2013, 03:37:49 pm ---I'm a longtime World of Warcraft player, and that game has long had a distinction between the "hardcore" and "casual" players supposedly based on how much each group played each week. People would often argue that Blizzard (the company that makes WoW) favored one at the expense of the other, or that they "obviously don't care about [casual/hardcore] players and just want to pander to the [hardcore/casual] crowd." The thing is, that dichotomy is worthless. How much someone plays the game does not, ultimately, equal their devotion or ability to play said game.
I think this is why your description of "casual" and "hardcore" players makes me angry; I'm coming off of a very similar argument that was ultimately pointless, and I'd like to not have it again here. Thus, I will from now on refer to our two groupings as "bad" and "good" players respectively.
--- End quote ---
You can argue all you want, but definition is definition and sadly definition can change. It's sad to see the "I play for fun" slogan being abused the way it is now, I really mean that. But there's no way around it really.
--- Quote ---The problem is that there's no good way to separate good and bad players other than rankings and the like, and the player base in GoIO is far too small to institute some kind of system like that. How many people are actually playing this game? I've never seen more than 1,000 online at any given time; I play at odd hours, true, but that's the absolute maximum. How many of those are under level three in all classes? How many are over level 10? If I level up, will I suddenly have nobody else to play with? What if level is a poor measure of player skill? I got to level three/four in everything just by playing the game for a couple weeks. Yeah, I'm not bad, but I'm far from an expert. How do you measure that? Do we let players police themselves? Vote kick systems are ripe for abuse, and, as I said, there are too few players to go kicking all of the bad ones that show up. You're right that the commendation system is fairly weak; most people just hit it as a matter of course. But I'm not sure what else can be done.
I'd also like to say that I have yet to notice any large wave of "bad" players showing up. Yeah, there are a few bad eggs, but never so many I can't just ignore the annoying ones or find a new lobby to play in.
--- End quote ---
No, you do not need a ranking, like mentioned AVA has done fine with the noob pool + kicking and having such a pool with some minor enforcement will do wonders. You will keep some rotten apples, sure, but they will stay a minority.
--- Quote from: Mr. Ace Rimmer on August 28, 2013, 04:37:06 pm ---That is the exact opposite of what I am saying and you know it. Since when did engaging with the community and actively trying to rectify a growing problem become ignorance. If Muse were to ever implement a system that split the player base the way you are suggesting, I would consider myself having gotten my $10 out of the game and walk away from it.
--- End quote ---
No, that is exactly what you said, you just don't know it. Of course we would want everyone to pub happily, but there's limits to people's patience. The sooner we agree on that the sooner we can start on making sure that that patience limit doesn't get reached.
--- Quote ---I fail to see this problem as anything more than minor and sincerely believe you are looking at the situation with a very lopsided view based on what should have been in my experience (and I believe a lot of others) a statistical anomaly.
I have been playing quite regularly for nigh on 3 weeks now and I would say <1% of the player base I have encountered fit into the category you are describing.
No matter how much you try to sugar coat it, what you are selling is elitism, a two tiered player base, us and them, and I and many others just aren't buying it.
(The reporting system exists for a reason and should continue to be used. I'm pretty sure Muse follow up on all reports.)
--- End quote ---
No, now it isn't nearly as bad as it can be. The way the game is set up now, bad players don't even stay very long because it goes ugly really fast for them. However, when I started playing HoN, the community was just like this one is now. It has gone to shit, it went to shit before people even realized what was up and when it finally hit everyone in the face, the assumption was that going retail would fix it. It went retail, the idiots stayed, matchmaking was around the corner, it would fix this issue; it didn't, it as a matter of fact made them worse. Now it's gone to a reporting system with a mute button and.. oh everyone left for DotA2. DotA2 now has all the ragers and idiots. What happened there? Mute system got implemented, every player that gave a shit about winning was pissed off so bad... Even I wanted to swing my PC out the window that day. And it just got worse, the matchmaking system there did the opposite of fixing things. So again, this is the future of GoIO if the development team is not careful.
I'm not selling elitism. I'm not an elitist, I don't think people should be withheld from my game on the merit that they are less skilled than I am. I believe they should be withheld from my games because they just don't give a fuck, and I do. As long as bad players are trying, I can make them better than they think they are. If they don't care, I might as well be downloading porn.
Eukari:
Nobody is using the casual/hardcore definition except for you. Unless you're saying that people are deliberately playing badly, and then defending themselves with "I play for fun," I don't think your definitely is accurate. As someone who often describes themselves as a casual gamer, it's more than a little offensive to just be lumped in with people who would more accurately be described as a**holes. Unless you think "just playing for fun" is negative behavior in and of itself, in which case we have nothing further to discuss.
Again, I'm not unsympathetic to your viewpoint; nobody wants to game with a bunch of people who aren't even trying to play, but I have yet to see any signs of some community-wide slide into barbarism. Until this actually becomes a problem, I don't think we need to be tearing our hair out about something that may never become an issue.
Echoez:
--- Quote from: QKO on August 28, 2013, 05:30:18 pm ---It's sad to see the "I play for fun" slogan being abused the way it is now
--- End quote ---
This is something I'd like to draw everyone's attention to.
This particular slogar, just as QKO put it, the famous "I play for fun and not to win" is realy as bullshit as it can get and please for all that is good, stop using it.
In a game where you are competing with other players winning IS and SHOULD be fun. There is no 'I play for fun and not win' crap, that's just a lame excuse for you dicking around and probably ruining your teamate's game as well if he isn't dicking around along with you.
Now, is winning the only fun thing in a competitive game? NO, it isn't, but I and I assume many more people aren't having fun when someone is deliberately ruining it for them cause 'he/she plays for fun and not to win', cause we play to win and we have fun while doing so and if we lose while TRYING, then yes, it's still amazingly fun, but honestly, stop using that lame excuse, it's infuriating beyond any belief, you are not playing alone in this game, so you might want to consider your teammates as well.
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