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"Artemis - Mercury" Role swap.
Echoez:
--- Quote from: Captain Smollett on July 15, 2013, 12:23:29 pm ---I see you have in fact done the math. Both of these guns would be incredibly weak. The Artemis would give you about half the dps of the mercury with almost no disable and the Mercury would be useless with only one shot and virtually no armor damage. I suppose people might still take a trifecta Artemis but your intentions are obviously to nerf the long game away.
If that's your intention wouldn't it just be easier to change merc range to 1000 M and call it a day.
--- End quote ---
Come on Smollett, you know that's not true, Artemis would still knock out unattended components in 3 shots, while the Mercury would be still a very good counter to Heavy guns and engines just without the ridiculous piercing as well.
And I think you also know how silly lowering the range of the Mercury to just 1000 meters sounds :P
What I'm trying to do is reward pin point accuracy with the Mercury more and take out the absolutely ludicrous damage it does to armor, hopefully enabling shorter range ships an easier time in open maps (which are the vast majority in this game) while not completely giving up on a longer ranged armor piercer and it allows for more positioning options cause the Artemis will have a much more limited range.
Does it nerf the long game? Yes and I personaly think that it's a good thing to do that, considering how powerful all the long range guns are and how they slow down the game a lot.
also Zill makes a good point about the Goldfish's gun and the current Merc and let's not forget the Spire falls in the same category.
RearAdmiralZill:
Spire at least has another light gun to use, which is usually also a merc, so less useless than a goldfish.
Nerfing the long game isn't what we need. Brawling isn't some sick puppy of a thing that cant hold its own. It does however get heavy in terms of the tactics involved over "turn ship" and "shoot that guy" so that's a big underlying factor. Just because games take long doesn't mean its broken. In fact that's a good sign. If long range only battles were short, we'd have a much larger problem. Yea a lot of long range guns are heavy hitting, but you aren't hitting with them consistently at 1.5km. The only one that comes close is merc, which only takes away armor and disables those larger guns, which balances that. If you let yourself get whittled into swiss cheese trying to outrange mercs, that's not a gun issue but one of tactics.
Opinion of course.
Echoez:
--- Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on July 15, 2013, 01:24:41 pm ---Spire at least has another light gun to use, which is usually also a merc, so less useless than a goldfish.
Nerfing the long game isn't what we need. Brawling isn't some sick puppy of a thing that cant hold its own. It does however get heavy in terms of the tactics involved over "turn ship" and "shoot that guy" so that's a big underlying factor. Just because games take long doesn't mean its broken. In fact that's a good sign. If long range only battles were short, we'd have a much larger problem. Yea a lot of long range guns are heavy hitting, but you aren't hitting with them consistently at 1.5km. The only one that comes close is merc, which only takes away armor and disables those larger guns, which balances that. If you let yourself get whittled into swiss cheese trying to outrange mercs, that's not a gun issue but one of tactics.
Opinion of course.
--- End quote ---
It is a gun that does too much with little to no downsides. It restricts positioning by a large margin and makes approaching too difficult, plus the only counter to it is to find cover and then hope you get the jump on them, sure, I won't be sitting there trying to out-merc you with my close range loadout, but it is litteraly the only gun that forces enemies to cover unless you have something to overpower the damage it does, then you just hope you get the jump on the enemy before they soften you up considerably with their Merc sides. Doesn't seem like all that many more tactics if you ask me, it just forces a situation in which you either find cover and hope you get a jump, or just get demolished cause usually it's not 1-2 Merc, it's 3+ and they can easily chip away at your permahull. Correct me if I am wrong, of all people I'm willing to be proven wrong on this hopefully.
Even the Lumberjack doesn't force such a situation.. and it is a heavy gun for pete's sake.
RearAdmiralZill:
Well, in the 3v3 tourny, the Ducks damn near beat Polaris while using mainly brawl ships. Granted, they lost 7-6, but I don't attribute that loss to the mercs.
--- Quote --- Doesn't seem like all that many more tactics if you ask me, it just forces a situation in which you either find cover and hope you get a jump, or just get demolished cause usually it's not 1-2 Merc, it's 3+ and they can easily chip away at your permahull.
--- End quote ---
Our tactic of splitting up and keeping their focus on one ship worked out in the end. The way I think of it, is in fact that the positioning is so important. You want them shooting at the tanky target. You want to give them the lowest profile when you do charge them. You want to be really high or low in comparison to them. The merc's weakness is its arc. You can literally force a merc team out of position if you give them a nice enough target. That's a big tradeoff to me.
If they don't focus a target, they wont do enough to stop the charge. Once you're in short range, all bets are off with the merc.
Charging blindly into a gun-line should never work though, even with mercs.
--- Quote ---Even the Lumberjack doesn't force such a situation.. and it is a heavy gun for pete's sake.
--- End quote ---
A well shot LJ should force a situation. It forces you high to negate the balloon going down, but that is its best arc, so that's potentially worse.
I think we're at a point though where our opinions are firmly entrenched. At least I feel close to that point.
Echoez:
I'm not saying it can't be countered at all by tactics, I'm saying that you can not deny it is a broken gun, it does destroy components in one shot and pierces through armor as well, of course superior tactics can still overpower it, but it doesn't change the fact that it needs to be looked at.
The LJ can force a situation if well shot, but it can be easily disabled by a well shot Mercury (We all hate Sunderland.. :P), while the Mercury can't be as easily disabled. Which is why I think it shouldn't be allowed such power at range.
the reasoning is pretty basic, by making the Mercury a disable-only gun, you now have to choose between piercing and disabling, while right now, you can have both on one gun which you can bring twice, hence why I think a gun that can be abused like this should be tended to, since Gat/Flak is limited in that you have to bring both guns to do the job, well, I think long ranged guns should be bound by the same law.
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