Stop punishing high levels

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Clan or not, I fly at times when most of them are not online. Some of them I only see for competitive matches. Good chunk of the time I fly solo or with folk from other clans.

That said, getting all 7+ on an opposing team is next to impossible unless you just happen to catch them on. Heck even 4+ for the stupid Firnfeld achievement is pretty bad right now. It not only takes the opposing team being 4+ but it takes my team being all coordinated. Then having to do it multiple times without the other team leaving. I'm being held up right now by Firnfeld because of that. It is not as bad but its still blech. I'm going to have to dedicate a weekend during prime time hours and request only high levels join. Meaning any lowbie that joins will be told to leave immediately. No level 1s permitted. That really want you want? This is for a 3v3 which is even harder to get good teams for. Is this really what Muse wants their game to turn into? Total discrimination against new players?

And another thing...since when is it my responsibility to coddle and practically breast feed new players up to high level? This is a game, its not a kindergarden. There are no games that have ever been made which demand experienced players sit around and train new players. Unless of course they volunteer or get paid for it. I'm not getting paid for this. I don't mind helping those that want to learn and show proficiency but I'm not going to sit there holding a new player's hand till they figure out the blunt end goes on the damaged part. I have a right to enjoy the game in my own way. To me, that doesn't include coddling people even if it would be for my benefit. This isn't tech support! You get the crash course and recommendations from me, then answers if questions asked. This game is not hard. If people can't adjust to that then they need to find a low level match where they can practice. Better them learn there than being asked to do the impossible on my ship. Which they will be and I'm always glad to see swabbies which get good fast when faced with such pressure. Just wish more of them would stay in game.

You want to get to high level then you gotta commit to it and work at it. Learn from the best, and beat the best. Fight your way up like I did. No one coddled me up to level 12. If you can't take that, then theres a 6yr old soccer game somewhere handing out prizes for participation, go find it.

[Clara Skyborn]

Maybe it got lost in the noise, but I did agree to lower those level requirements already. The highest one is now 10+ for a single achievement, and elsewhere the highest is 7+.

The changes are live. Here's the log: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1604.msg29311.html#msg29311

[Mattilald Anguisad]

I think 10+ is reasonable enough. Especialy since the skill diference between 10 and 15 is not nearly as large as  it is between 3 and 8.

[Commodore Phoenix]

Look can you people not get it we don't have a problem with the achievements if say you release them when on average at our lowest amount of players is 500 but it isn't so these achievements are impossible you are just making it seem terrifying to new players and make vet players want to give up. When you have more players I doubt there will be complaints from the actual players who are dedicated. We only want Muse to understand they have released "level" based achievements to early on in the game.

[Mattilald Anguisad]

By the time they hit achievments with level requirements they are all experienced players (level 6). One of the Captains on the winning team in the latest tournament was thereabouts - think it's safe to assume that such levels will be experienced. New players have worse problems to get over, than level requirements for some achievments high up.

[Commodore Phoenix]

We aren't arguing against the use of level based achievements what we are arguing against is the release of them so quickly.

[Surette]

Sub 10s singing Muse praises while the high levels are fed up. Yeah that sounds about right. Till you've been there and done what must be done to get to where we are, you'll see this as a wonderful move. Once you get there, crewed with many great players who only played a freaken week and have never came back, you see the true insanity of forcing achievements like this. Your arguments are invalid till then.

This is a bit silly. That's like saying I'm unable to critique music because I've never personally been in a successful band. Sure, my highest level is only 9, but I'd like to think I'm somewhat familiar with the achievement system at this point. Saying my argument is invalid because I'm under level 10 is just an easy way to dismiss a point without actually responding to it.

I genuinely don't see the issue with having very difficult endgame achievements. The entire point of endgame achievements are for them to take a long time, and for them to only be able to be completed by a select few.

[Captain Smollett]

Guys I think Jess just indirectly solved your problems.  Pretty much all the impossible early captains achievements have been removed so we should be seeing plenty more 7+ captains very soon.

[Commodore Phoenix]

Smollet you have way to much faith.

[Mattilald Anguisad]

I'm 3 pyra kills away from level 7 captain

[Commodore Phoenix]

LOL. But in all seriousness you are a dedicated player.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

This is a bit silly. That's like saying I'm unable to critique music because I've never personally been in a successful band. Sure, my highest level is only 9, but I'd like to think I'm somewhat familiar with the achievement system at this point. Saying my argument is invalid because I'm under level 10 is just an easy way to dismiss a point without actually responding to it.

I genuinely don't see the issue with having very difficult endgame achievements. The entire point of endgame achievements are for them to take a long time, and for them to only be able to be completed by a select few.

Yeah but you nuts seem to have no concept of how difficult or how futile these achievements are. How long have you been playing? 100hrs? 150? Maybe over 200? I'm over 670, Phoenix is over 750, Twinkie is over 1000. We've been doing this long enough to know how much a pain in the butt it is to get achievements like this. How hard it is to find players even capable of doing this.

This is like talking to a wall. Phoenix and I keep saying this and you all keep demonizing us and throwing it back. NEWSFLASH!!!! THE MAJORITY OF NEW PLAYERS DO NOT CONTINUE PLAYING THIS GAME OUTSIDE OF A DAY OR TWO!!!! WE'VE HELPED BRING MANY INTO THIS GAME BUT WHAT DO WE GET...THEY DEPART AFTER A FEW MATCHES NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN!!! The community of this game is not healthy enough for it to handle level cap achievements. Specially not ones which force an entire team to be of all the same level or higher. If it was just one player on that team, then we wouldn't even be here.

Heck I'll end this argument now if these achievements get changed to ones where it only requires one person of a certain level to do it. Because then it is tough, but doable if worked at.

[Surette]

Yeah but you nuts seem to have no concept of how difficult or how futile these achievements are. How long have you been playing? 100hrs? 150? Maybe over 200? I'm over 670, Phoenix is over 750, Twinkie is over 1000. We've been doing this long enough to know how much a pain in the butt it is to get achievements like this. How hard it is to find players even capable of doing this.

This is like talking to a wall. Phoenix and I keep saying this and you all keep demonizing us and throwing it back. NEWSFLASH!!!! THE MAJORITY OF NEW PLAYERS DO NOT CONTINUE PLAYING THIS GAME OUTSIDE OF A DAY OR TWO!!!! WE'VE HELPED BRING MANY INTO THIS GAME BUT WHAT DO WE GET...THEY DEPART AFTER A FEW MATCHES NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN!!! The community of this game is not healthy enough for it to handle level cap achievements. Specially not ones which force an entire team to be of all the same level or higher. If it was just one player on that team, then we wouldn't even be here.

Heck I'll end this argument now if these achievements get changed to ones where it only requires one person of a certain level to do it. Because then it is tough, but doable if worked at.

The entire point of my argument is that I do understand how difficult these achievements are. I'm trying to say that I think very difficult endgame achievements are a good thing. These achievements were also implemented with the intent for the community to grow. They may be near impossible now, but soon there will be more higher leveled players, and the achievements won't seem bad at all. And you might say "why not wait to add the achievements until there are more players" -- but I don't see how it matters when they get added. They'll get easier as time goes on and as the community grows and reaches higher levels, and that's exactly how they're meant to work.

I'm not demonizing anyone, I agree that some of the achievements are very difficult with the current state of the game and the community. My point is that's exactly the intent of endgame achievements and I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Commodore Phoenix]

You say the community is going to grow OK fair enough sometimes we have a small boost in players from TGS cast or other things but since my time playing in December they player amount has only increased by about 20-30 on at the lowest time . This game does not have a fast growing community. It's a very niche game that doesn't appeal to a lot of people.

Also endgame achievements would imply that you get a big pay off like say the ultimate ship or the best gun. This is not the case the level 13 prize is a MASK and god knows what the level 15 prize is if they have even done one, there is no incentive for people to do the "Endgame" achievements like you say. I personally only do achievements so that I feel I haven't wasted most of my life playing this game with a group of people I don't enjoy playing with.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Perfect case in point. Did a few matches on Firnfeld against lvl 4+, finally got some. But all were clan teams and people with mics, with one level 11. All losses, all non perfect victories. This is a level 9 achievement and it literally takes absolute pub stomping and stacking of one team to pull it off. After all the fuss newbs make about stacking, this is what Muse is encouraging. Gimmie a break. These achievements are flawed and you know it. Everyone I talked with in the match agreed they are full of crap.

This whole time the system could be solved simply by not forcing all the opposing team to have high numbers. Just make it 1 ship. Or maybe 2 ships for 3v3. That is plenty difficult but doable if worked at.