Lumberjack Discussion

[Captain Smollett]

I know this won't really change anyones opinions, but I've been watching a fair amount of the recent competitive matches and still haven't been seeing LJ's dominating the matches.

One of the hallmarks of an OP weapon for me is when the mere act of taking the weapon when your opponent doesn't nets you the win.  Teams with LJs are both winning and losing to teams without them.

Just an observation.

[Moriarty]

It is a minority of the forum dwellers but a majority of people who actually play the game. In just about every lobby you hear people say the LJ is fun to use but OP as shit. In alot of lobbies people wont even use it because they feel dirty.

Still going strong i see Ofiach, well everyone needs a hobby.

I've never heard complaints about the LJ unless it was a cogs team pub stomping with one, but then there's always going to be complaints in a stomping. No most matches i hear complaints about the manticore as OP and unskilled etc.

[Machiavelliest]

This thread is now content-free!

[shadowsteel]

I think the reason why there has been some complaint that the LJ is OP is because it's one of the only guns that rewards gunners for their skill (if a goldfish is moving side-to-side its almost impossible to hit with an LJ except maybe for Yiski...). Most of the other guns are more beginner friendly and have some leeway in regards to aiming.

And if they're using Lesmok then close the distance and move around. The LJ has very slow yaw movement and lesmok slows it down even more.

Or call your ally. That's what they're there for.

[Letus]

The Only real complaint I'll make is that I cannot tell the difference between a Lumberjack shot flying at me, and a Typhon Flak shot flying at me until I realize that I went to camp the wrong part of the ship....

those particle things are ...they look the same to me.

[Ofiach]

I would just like to add I had to bring an entire ship to disable a single weapon.... if that aint OP......

Also near perfect team flying to beat a single weapon. I mean... come on.

[Letus]

I would just like to add I had to bring an entire ship to disable a single weapon.... if that aint OP......

Also near perfect team flying to beat a single weapon. I mean... come on.

I had an imperfect team disable and keep my gun disabled...
it was when they decided to shoot at the other ship when they regretted not paying attention to my lumberjack.

Got really annoying because it got to the point where I had to time fix my lumberjack to get one shot out...just to have to rebuild, and wait again for the next incoming clip to pass, just to get another shot out before it goes down.

[Keon]

I feel like "difficulty balancing" is a bad idea. Either it's op for good players or UP for new guys.

[Letus]

I feel like "difficulty balancing" is a bad idea. Either it's op for good players or UP for new guys.

That can be said for just about every gun though...
a gat / flak pyramid can deal little damage if they don't know what their doing, while the same build can be overly strong if they do.

[Echoez]

This thread realy reminds me of the Sniper arguments in the TF2 Sniper SPUFs.

I'm not the most super l33t pro player, but shooters have always had long range (sniper) weapons and closer range weapons, both fullfilling their own role.

Saying that "camping on one spot and sniping" is bad or that "The only way to win a game without playing it is sniping" just goes to tell that you are just (and excuse me for the profanity) butthurt because something is killing you outside of your weapon's optimal range you just can't be arsed to compesate or change your playstyle a bit to counter something different.

In my honest opinion and without meaning any offense, whoever is complaining should just learn to adapt in different situations. I like the LJ just as much as I like other weapons and I have successfuly won against many LJ users just because I used my brain a bit.

[Ofiach]

I slaughter most LJ users just like I slaughtered most 50 cal chaingun(sniper?) users in COD that doesn't mean the gun isn't overpowered.

@EchoLG
the range of the gun isn't even the problem, I don't think you even read any of this thread, a friend told you his summarized version and you just responded to what he told you. Bad idea.

The problem is the gun does well over double the damage per clip than any other gun in the game, and it's closest competition, the carronade, is only useful out to 450 meters.

Next time read what the issue is before commenting.

[Captain Smollett]

I haven't seen the match, but it does sort of sound Ofiach like you're complaining that you had to alter the strategy you like to take because of the strategy your opponent took in order to win.  This doesn't seem like an argument for anything being op.

[Letus]

To go on the outshining of weapon A vs Weapon B

Flak and Light Mortar

Light Mortar surpasses Flak in dps and range (get lesmok and that thing and boy can you shoot far, and hit often now that it has no spread.)  Get a good gunner on the light mortar, and you can easily destroy a gat-flak anything, if you are using Merc - Mortar that is....(you know what, I may just try that loadout...sounds complicatedly fun.)

Heavy Mortar is the same, higher DPS, but it lacks in killing power than the light mortar does.


I was recently in a game with some level 3 pilot who bitched about Spud Nick's Flak-Lumber Galleon, and the pilot was on our team.  For about...five matches, we won, some were stomps, other were rather close (mostly because he got pissed and decided to go into the fray and effectively made the galleon useless doing so and wound up dead himself.)  Because "this strategy is too different.

The other team, bless them for sticking around after getting womped on so much, learned a way to fight that Galleon: snipe out the lumberjack and charge.  They even didn't fix the balloon much, giving them both gunners while they camped the hull.  Though the idea of the wingship is to take them out when they do that...that pilot...could have had four easy kills...but he was one of those ramming pilots...so...we got them all when he should have.

Anyways, he was bitching about the stand still as they come tactic being boring--which can be true--but it got to the point that the people on the other team were vouching for my ship.  All of them were new, but they were practically praising our aim, "this guy is hitting us with all his rounds" they said.  Again, his ship had many opportunities to take out other ships, he just never did it. 

The only person who complained about the extreme power of a lumberjack hull kill, and then heavy flak death blow, was a guy on the winning side...who then promptly left when a ship on the other team left and my ship then filled that.


I know this was a huge roundabout of most likely tl;dr, but the point is that Smollet's observation seems to be the most common complaint of the jack.  It changes your comfort zone drastically...and people don't like that.  If it was truely OP, everyone would be flying a lumberfish....



tl;dr -- I.  Hate.  SAUERKRAUT.

[-Muse- Cullen]

I know this was a huge roundabout ....
tl;dr -- I.  Hate.  SAUERKRAUT.

I love you.

Personally, I feel that this gun isn't overpowered. An overpowered weapon is something like a 'noob tube' from Counter Strike... Point and click like crazy leads to 8 semi-auto sprays of pellets... two shots kill a player, so the other 6 are for good measure. The LJ needs more skill than that, and it rewards the player a whole lot for being able to do it. If it actually did damage to the hull, then there would be a problem. However... it only pops the balloon, which is a repairable thing. I hate it when I take fire from an experienced LJ gunner, but that's just how it is in my eyes... A difficult gun to use has a high reward for learning it.

[Echoez]

I slaughter most LJ users just like I slaughtered most 50 cal chaingun(sniper?) users in COD that doesn't mean the gun isn't overpowered.

@EchoLG
the range of the gun isn't even the problem, I don't think you even read any of this thread, a friend told you his summarized version and you just responded to what he told you. Bad idea.

The problem is the gun does well over double the damage per clip than any other gun in the game, and it's closest competition, the carronade, is only useful out to 450 meters.

Next time read what the issue is before commenting.

No friend told me anything and I have actually read every comment up to this page, so stop assuming things, please.

The LJ has a lot of downsides to compesate for its power, including the arming time, limited turn radius (a slow one as well) and of course being a medium gun, which means only usable on 3 ships currently, 1 of them being horribly slow and the other horribly fragile, the projectiles are quite slow and have a massive arc to their trajectory, sure a trained gunner can be pretty reliable, but as with anything not completely hitscan, any projectile weapon is unreliable at certain ranges, and since piloting equipment to mess with your enemy's aimming exists, I see absolutely no problem on why any ship would have problems against any of the current ships that can equip an LJ.

It's also a long range gun, it's supposed to do a lot of damage and in most games it's not unusual that the sniper deals well over double the damage of any other weapon in one clip. Again, TF2 sniper argument from SPUFs, it is the same thing, realy, people argue that snipers ruin their close range fights and are only countered by other snipers, hence should be nerfed.

All in all though, it's still Muse's game, so I'll leave weapon balance up to them. This is just my opinion and I'm certainly no expert on the field.