Newbie Questions re: balance

[Nanako]

Hi everyone.  ^_^
I've been playng this game a fair bit over the past week, mostly as a gunner. I'm noticing some things which are starting to confuse, and wondering if any members of the community can shed light on things.

The first thing i'm a bit confused about is health. from my experience, it seems like the damage:health ratio of combat is way out of whack, towards the defensive side.  some ships just will not die, even when crippled and apparently helpless. it seems like coordinating with another ship on your team is the only way to deal enough burst damage to actually kill many ships. 1vs1 fights always seem to turn into endless stalemates. i've seen situations where our pilot just followed behind an enemy as i repeatedly unloaded the echidna into it's rear, hitting ~90% of my shots, for over 10 minutes on end. and it wouldn't go down

When on the recieving end of fire, i'm noticing that it's extremely easy and fast to repair ship armor from nothing to full with just a single engineer. this is even true of big tanky ships like the galleon. The majority of deaths of ships i'm on seem to be from a lapse in the engineer's attention.



The other main thing i wanted to ask about is weapon balance. As far as i can tell, the armor-stripping and hull-damaging combo of gatling and flak gun is way overpowered. That and the hwacha. I'm basing this not only on experiences of using them, but on observations that everyone else is using them too. I often look at all the ship configs in a lobby before a game, and it's rare to see a ship that doesn't have at least 1 gatling, 1 flak, and a hwacha if it's got a heavy slot.

i've tried every other weapon in the game to some degree, but most of them didn't seem particularly useful. The artemis, banshee, and heavy flak all just seemed like inferior versions of the echidna, i couldn't find any worthwhile reason to use them. Flamethrower is too niche, and i don't get the point of destroying the balloon with carronades. I tried it, but the enemy doesn't explode in a glorious blaze upon crashing into the ground. they seem to just sort of shuffle along taking minor damage until someone whacks the balloon a bit.

i guess i don't really see the point in having so many weapons, when so few of them are really used. D:




Oh and lastly, with the gunner's special rounds, what is the effect of the property called "Muzzle Speed" ? I don't understand it.

There's a few things i thought it might have been, but each of those already has it's own property name:
Projectile speed
Firing rate
Rotation speed


could it be the reload time? i find it curious that property is absent. I don't quite understand the lesmok rounds because the muzzle speed is their main high value.

[Wazulu]

Hello there, here's hoping I can answer your questions.

1) This is a rather odd way to phrase it, but the reason why it's taking you so long to kill other ships is due to the skill level of your gunners and the loadouts that your Captains choose. As I'm sure you understand, there are two types of hull- Permahull, and Hull Armour. Hull armour can be repaired and rebuilt endlessly, but Permahull cannot be repaired, and once it is reduced completely the ship dies. Onto my point about loadout: Different weapons deal different types of damage, and each type of damage is more or less effective against each component. The most effective type of damage against Hull Armour is Pierce, which is applied by the Gatling and other weapons. The most effective type of damage against Permahull is Explosive, which is dealt by, you guessed it, the Echidna. Hence, you need both weapons to take down a ship, as Pierce is poor against Permahull, while Explosive is terrible against Hull Armour.

With this, we can go back to the novice gunners- there is little point firing Flak shots at a ship before Hull Armour is down, as we can see. However, novice gunners do, and when the Gatling takes the Hull Armour down, the Flak is usually reloading, hence it misses the opportunity to get a full clip into the Permahull before the Hull Armour is rebuilt. Like this, it takes much longer to bring down ships. However, on top of that is the misunderstanding of the role of the Hwacha. The Manticore deals Shatter and Explosive damage. Shatter is good against components, such as guns or engines. As such, the Hwacha is in the 'Disabler' class of guns. However, the Hwacha is also heavily inaccurate. The problem with novice crews is that they view the Hwacha as the be-all and end-all. In fact, it will not kill anything until a Pierce weapon has taken the Hull Armour down, just disable ships. As such, Ships with Pierce weapons need to coordinate with Hwacha ships to drop the Hull Armour. Unprotected, Hwachas disintegrate Permahull. On a secondary note, the Hwacha is pretty much useless at anything beyond close range without Heavy Clip, as the shot spread is pretty huge.


Okay, question numero duo.

2) I agree, but it's more the Gat/Flak combo is simply the most efficient method of taking out a ship. The Artemis, Banshee and Heavy Flak are all unused simply because the Gat/Flak is better and more versatile. Also, Flame has been heavily nerfed (a single stack would disable a gun). Carronades are a tricky subject. In the hands of the right Captain and crew they are incredibly effective, especially against ships such as the Galleon. However, due to their recent nerf they are much harder to use, hence why I believe newer players view it as useless. Some weapons don't have any useful roles, but it's more about  the dominance of the Gat/Flak. The Lumberjack, if used well, is devastating at long-range balloon popping, so I wouldn't underestimate it.

I hope this answers your questions, but if not reply here or catch me in-game.

EDIT: Gah! you put the edit in before I posted! Give me a sec Done.

Muzzle speed is the speed of the projectile as it leaves the weapon- reduced muzzle speed will quantify as quicker drop from shells. It's more like initial speed as it fires from the weapon.

[-Muse- Cullen]

Wazulu beat me to it while I was writing this up, but hopefully I talked about things that he didn't cover.

The first thing i'm a bit confused about is health... Some ships just will not die, even when crippled and apparently helpless. it seems like coordinating with another ship on your team is the only way to deal enough burst damage to actually kill many ships. I've seen situations where our pilot just followed behind an enemy as i repeatedly unloaded the echidna into it's rear, hitting ~90% of my shots, for over 10 minutes on end. and it wouldn't go down

The hull has two health types, one which is resistant to explosive, and one that is resistant to piercing. Constant explosive fire against its armor, not the hull, is easy to repair. Getting the armor down first is important for that flak, which is why the Gat/Flak combo is so effective. Explosive damage has AoE, and can break other systems if the engineer is not careful. Because you were doing explosive damage against the armor of the enemy ship, and not the hull, the damage was decreased down to 30% of its true potential. To see the modifiers for damage types on systems, go here. http://gunsoficarusonline.wikia.com/wiki/Weapons

The other main thing i wanted to ask about is weapon balance. As far as i can tell, the armor-stripping and hull-damaging combo of gatling and flak gun is way overpowered. That and the hwacha. I'm basing this not only on experiences of using them, but on observations that everyone else is using them too. I often look at all the ship configs in a lobby before a game, and it's rare to see a ship that doesn't have at least 1 gatling, 1 flak, and a hwacha if it's got a heavy slot.

To kill a ship, its hull has to be destroyed- all other systems can be repaired. Explosive rounds do a reduced amount of damage to everything but the hull- however, because it has AoE, it's damage is spread out around the ship, which is what makes it dangerous. Piercing weapons, like the Gatling, are exceptional at destroying armor, so many ships will take it in order to open up a hole for the explosive weapons. The Flak is arguably the most 'safe' light explosive weapon to use because of its accuracy and damage output, so they'll pair it with something to shred the armor. The Hwacha is a popular medium weapon because of its disabling ability- simple as that. Landing all rockets will destroy a system or two.

i've tried every other weapon in the game to some degree, but most of them didn't seem particularly useful. The artemis, banshee, and heavy flak all just seemed like inferior versions of the echidna, i couldn't find any worthwhile reason to use them. Flamethrower is too niche, and i don't get the point of destroying the balloon with carronades. I tried it, but the enemy doesn't explode in a glorious blaze upon crashing into the ground. they seem to just sort of shuffle along taking minor damage until someone whacks the balloon a bit.

i guess i don't really see the point in having so many weapons, when so few of them are really used. D:

People use the weapons that they are most comfortable with. Personally, I love using an Artemis with Greased rounds, cos I think it works better than the Flak with a longer range and larger AoE. The banshee is the rare gun that seems to benefit from nearly every ammo type- its high rotation speed, good-sized clip, and chance to light systems on fire makes it something that I usually put on my ship. Pair it with burst or incendiary and it'll start causing problems when used with another gun. The heavy flak is a sniping weapon, and, when paired with a Mercury, it can be a huge threat to an enemy team. Everything has a use, so people will pick weapons based on the play-style they want to have. Gatling/Flak is a more confrontational loadout, so people like to use it. Artemis/Mercury has the same sort of damage types, but meant for longer range. I personally like dual Gatling on the front of a Pyramidion(so I can ram once their armor is down), and I like to use Gat/Scylla on a squid for the problems it causes(take out the armor, and then get right up in its face to unload the mortar).

Oh and lastly, with the gunner's special rounds, what is the effect of the property called "Muzzle Speed" ? I don't understand it.

Muzzle speed is how fast the bullet is traveling once it leaves the gun. Faster speeds means that the bullet will fly farther and get there faster. Slower speeds means that it'll fly slower(and, if it is a weapon affected by gravity, the arc will be steeper) and it will get there slower.

[Nanako]

ok, well, more questions now ^^

given the apparent need of timing the flak strikes... how am i actually supposed to know whether or not the target ship has armor left? i don't see any healthbars.

Also, doesn't this armor mechanic pretty much make all single mount ships (and the galleon which has no pierce weaponry, really) pretty worthless? i can see now why the pyramidion is so popular. I don't see how any ship can compete in that system if it isn't able to point two guns at the enemy simultaneously.

Piercing weapons, like the Gatling, are exceptional at destroying armor

weapons "like the gatling" ? from looking through the weapon page on the wiki, it seems like there only ARE two piercing weapons in the game, the second one being a longrange sniper rifle which doesn't seem appropriate :| does that mean it's stupid to ever build a ship without gatling guns? i feel like this limits tactical variety

Muzzle speed is how fast the bullet is traveling once it leaves the gun. Faster speeds means that the bullet will fly farther and get there faster. Slower speeds means that it'll fly slower(and, if it is a weapon affected by gravity, the arc will be steeper) and it will get there slower.

How is this different from Projectile Speed ?

[N-Sunderland]

1. In the top left corner it says "x destroyed hull armour" when a ship's armour goes down. Monitor that and wait until your gat gunner or another teammate gets their armour down.

2. While it does give a significant advantage to the Pyra, it's more a question of giving the other ships different roles than rendering them useless. A hwachafish can keep an enemy ship from retaliating while the Pyra kills them. A Squid can do the same thing. The Goldfish is also notable in that it gets that heavy gun on the front. Not to mention that you can also a side gat in tandem with the front gun to get their hull down and finish them. As for the Galleon, it has that left side light gun that's usually filled with a piercing weapon, but even without that it puts out incredible damage.

3. There are three guns with piercing. The gat, merc, and harpoon. Forget about the harpoon. The gatling is a very important element of most ships, and that's why people are starting to ask for more piercing weapons now. Still, ships can function without them. Harasser Squids can go without them. Long-range snipers can use the merc instead.

4. Projectile speed and muzzle speed are two names for the same thing.

[HamsterIV]

given the apparent need of timing the flak strikes... how am i actually supposed to know whether or not the target ship has armor left? i don't see any healthbars.

The text feed at the top left of the screen will say <player name> destroyed hull armor. If <player name> was shooting at your target its armor is down.

Also, doesn't this armor mechanic pretty much make all single mount ships (and the galleon which has no pierce weaponry, really) pretty worthless? i can see now why the pyramidion is so popular. I don't see how any ship can compete in that system if it isn't able to point two guns at the enemy simultaneously.

Each ship type has its strengths and weaknesses. The Pyramidion is popular because it is very easy to crew and fly. Its turning rate sucks and it doesn't have any medium weapon mounts. But you have to be a very good pilot to take advantage of an enemy Pyramidion's slow turning rate, or a very good gunner to out shoot two light guns with one medium gun. The low skill to high damage output is strongly skewed in the pyramidion's favor. Other ships if manned by excellent crew can easily outshine a Pyramidion with excellent crew. (BTW I am mostly a Pyramidion pilot)

weapons "like the gatling" ? from looking through the weapon page on the wiki, it seems like there only ARE two piercing weapons in the game, the second one being a longrange sniper rifle which doesn't seem appropriate :| does that mean it's stupid to ever build a ship without gatling guns? i feel like this limits tactical variety

Some people do rock fieldgun ships pretty effectively, but for the most part if you want to do the killing you take the gatling gun. There are of course tactical varialtions. You could load up on Flechette damage and try for balloon popping. You could run a disabling build and keep the enemy's guns and egnines offline as you wear down their hull. Flame builds are sadly no longer viable.

How is this different from Projectile Speed ?

Some projectiles slow down as they travel so the only constant value is it's muzzle speed.

[Wazulu]

Ah, cheers Hamster- I just got in here and saw this

EDIT: and to Sunderland, who summed up his points so well I didn't even see his post!

[HamsterIV]

N-Sunderland beat me to the response first. Cheers Wazulu

[Arthem White]

Interesting topic, I'm learning a lot!

My crew are also experimenting to learn the game mechanics... We played against you yesterday Nanako, I was flying the terrible, terrible pyramidion with 4 Harpoon Guns. If you remember having 4 ropes attached to your ship that was us haha.

[Sonoskay]

Actualy Ive had great success running a pyra with two barking dogs Or a goldfish with hellhound and just keeping my ships on them till they die from either the gun wearing their hull down or the ground doing it. Otherwise i roll with gat/flack on my junker. gat/flack are standard but are not the all mighty combo